An interview I did for Scroll:
‘I was tired of translating detailed descriptions of male desire and women’s breasts.’
Daisy
Rockwell is the translator of Hats
and Doctors,
a collection of short stories by the Hindi writer Upendranath Ashk,
as well as of Ashk’s famous novel, Girti
Diwarein,
titled Falling
Walls in
English. Her 2004 book, Upendranath
Ashk: A Critical Biography,
is an exemplary work of literary biography, locating Ashk and his
writing within the history of Hindi language and literature. An
American, Rockwell is also an artist – her grandfather was the
legendary painter (and author and illustrator) Norman Rockwell –
and has written a novel titled Taste.
She spoke to me about
how she got into Hindi and translation, why Hindi literature might be
more difficult to translate than Urdu, and where translations stand
in the larger scheme of publishing. Excerpts from the interview, as published in Scroll.in:
You’re
one of Hindi literature’s most devoted, thorough translators into
English. How did you happen to set out on this path?
That’s
very kind of you to say. I started off being interested in
translation in graduate school, when I began my doctorate in South
Asian studies. Before studying Hindi, I had studied Latin for many
years, as well as French, and some German and ancient Greek.
Classical languages really teach you to break down language into
microscopic bits, and that is how I first started translating,
although not with the purpose of publication.
My
advisor in graduate school at the University of Chicago encouraged
me, and I also had the great good fortune to take a translation
seminar with AK Ramanujan, perhaps the best known and most talented
translator from South Asian languages. My subsequent experiences in
academia discouraged me from pursuing translation, as it is not
currently considered an academically rigorous form of scholarship, at
least not in the US. It was not until I turned my back on academia
altogether that I returned to translation.
Many
of us in India, growing up in a multilingual society, take it for
granted that we move constantly between languages. For most bilingual
or trilingual Indians, their relationship to different languages may
not be something they actively consider very often. Do you think your
relationship to Hindi is qualitatively different from that of a
native speaker because you acquired the language as an adult? And
does your (perhaps) more self-conscious relationship with Hindi aid
your life as a translator, or make it harder?
My
relationship to Hindi is absolutely different from that of a native
speaker. I am an apt language learner, but I did not start learning
Hindi until I was 19. By then, as studies have shown, your brain is
less capable of soaking in new languages. It took me a long time to
be able to read or speak Hindi with any fluency, and even now I make
ridiculous mistakes and find some idiomatic phrases and words
impenetrable.
There
is a fluidity to the South Asian language-scape that is wholly
lacking in the United States, which is, despite the diverse
population, ferociously monolingual. Code-switching, the practice of
sliding effortlessly from one language to the next, or mixed idioms,
like Hinglish, are practically non-existent in the US, outside of
immigrant communities. I find it very hard to switch back and forth
mid-stream between Hindi and English.
I
do think all of this difficulty makes me extremely attentive to
linguistic details and nuances. Hindi and English do not flow into
each other in my mind, the way they might for a bilingual person, and
when I am translating from Hindi into English, I’m carrying every
word and phrase to a completely different territory.
Like
many well-known translators – William Weaver with Umberto Eco or
Italo Calvino, or Constance Garnett with Fyodor Dostoevsky or Anton
Chekhov – you have built up an association with the work of a
particular writer. Why were you drawn to Upendranath Ashk?
I
started reading Ashk in graduate school and I was drawn to his
attention to detail and his focus on literary production. His work is
full of poetry and quotations, and is a great meditation on what it
means to be a creative person.
But
I actually have five book translations in the translation/publication
pipeline right now, and only one is by Ashk, the second of
his Falling
Walls (Girti
Divarein) series. That volume, In
the City, a Mirror Wandering (Shahar
Mein Ghoomta Aina),
was due out from Penguin RandomHouse last summer, but is held up over
a copyright problem. Then I have two novels by the Urdu author
Khadija Mastur coming out from PRH: The
Women’s Courtyard (Aangan)
will be published in September of this year, and Zameen,
which I am working on right now, will come out next year. Both of
these are Partition-related novels. I’ve also just finished Krishna
Sobti’s latest novel, Gujarat,
Pakistan se Gujarat, Hindustan,
and that will be published early next year. Last, but not least, I
have just agreed to translate Geetanjali Shree’s new novel, Ret
Samadhi.
Publisher, TBA.
Although
I consider Ashk my first love, I am on a bit of a hiatus from him at
the moment for a variety of reasons, one of which is that I decided
two years ago that I wanted to focus on translating women authors. I
realised suddenly that I’d only been translating men (Ashk, Bhisham
Sahni, and Shrilal Shukla), and I felt fed up with the male gaze.
It’s a bit of a Twitter truism to say this, but there are many
interesting stories being told by women, and I was tired of
translating detailed descriptions of male desire and women’s
breasts. All of my most recent translations, therefore, are of works
by women, and the stories really are much more diverse.
Tim
Parks once wrote: “The translator should do his job and then
disappear. The great, charismatic, creative writer wants to be all
over the globe. And the last thing he wants to accept is that the
majority of his readers are not really reading him. His readers feel
the same. They want intimate contact with true greatness.” Do you
think the role of translator requires this invisibility?
It
is ironic that Tim Parks wrote that since, although he is a
translator, he refuses to disappear, and is always popping up with
unnecessarily nasty critiques of other translators, particularly
women who are getting more attention than him, such as Ann Goldstein
(Elena Ferrante’s translator), and Deborah Smith (the Man Booker
award-winning translator of the Korean novel The
Vegetarian).
Of
course translators must disappear. Despite the very strenuous and
granular work required in translation, in the end, the translator’s
work generally billows like a diaphanous curtain across the work, and
the reader doesn’t notice the translation at all, unless he or she
is a translator too, in which case he or she notices all the details,
both good and bad.
I
think the nicest analogy I have seen is a comparison with classical
music. A translator is like a musician, and the original author is
the composer. There are an infinite number of ways to play Vivaldi on
the violin, or Bhairav raga on the sitar. There are also a lot of
ways to mess them both up horrendously so that the audience members
clap their hands over their ears and run out of the room. When we say
a translation is unsuccessful, it is because the translator has not
been able to perform the underlying text in the target language in a
felicitous manner so that it could be enjoyed by the new readers as
much as it was in the original.
And
yet, given the unequal power differential between English and other
languages, certainly any Indian language, being translated into
English is such a writer’s only route to world fame: eg, the recent
case of Ghachar
Ghochar,
which has put Vivek Shanbhag on the global literary map. You’ve not
only been Ashk’s translator but his biographer: your book on him is
a stellar literary biography of a modern Indian writer, it really
deserves a new edition! But even setting aside the biography, do you
see yourself as Ashk’s representative in the English-speaking
world? Does that feel onerous?
I
don’t see it as onerous, I see it as a stroke of luck. Every time I
get permission to translate something, and believe me, that is not as
easy as it sounds, I feel tremendously grateful that I have been
allowed to render that work into English. English is the power
language and the link language, so much so that readers and
publishers often show little interest in works translated from other
languages. In fact, I have never published a book-length translation
in the United States because there is simply no interest.
Perhaps Ghachar
Ghochar will
change that, but it’s a heavy lift for one small book.
Thus,
I feel that translation from non-European languages into English is a
way to challenge that hegemony and remind English readers that there
are other ways of expressing and thinking in the world. As far as
fame and glory for the original author goes, Hindi publishing, for
one, probably is much more lucrative than English publishing in
India, at least in terms of raw book sales. A Hindi writer can expect
a much larger reading public than many an Indian English writer,
unless they make it into the global publishing market. So I don’t
think Hindi authors are really feeling under-appreciated or read in
that sense. Maybe they are not being invited to fancy lit fests, but
fancy lit fests are really quite a hollow marker of fame compared to
a robust and enthusiastic readership.
Are
you more invested in the degree to which your translation is faithful
to the original text, or in the degree of ease with which readers in
English will be able to enter it?
I
wouldn’t commit to one or the other. My translations go through
phases: each book will go through a minimum of five drafts before it
hits the editor’s desk. The first draft focuses on accuracy; the
fifth draft focuses on English readability. The ones in between are
on a continuum between these two. My copy editors will tell you that
I continue to aggressively revise the text all the way until it
departs for the printer.
What
do you do about dialect, or idiomatic phrases? Do you try to produce
an equivalent in English? This can be a difficult thing to do... I
remember in Falling
Walls,
you have Chetan calling his Bhai Sahib, Ramanand, the Old Codger. The
nickname is remarked upon at some length, but we do not learn the
original term in Hindi.
Some
aspects of dialect and idiom just cannot be translated, and if they
were kept in the original language in the translation, it would not
be a translation anymore. There is a school of translation in India
which feels that smoothing these elements out is doing violence to
the original text and that translating it into English at all is
doing violence really, because of the hegemony discussed above.
However, if one has committed to rendering a text in English, one
must bite the bullet and figure out how to get it done. If a nickname
or something is particularly hilarious, I might keep it in Hindi.
It’s really a case-by-case basis for me. In the case you are
talking about, the nickname was baṛhaū,
which is a) not that funny by contemporary Hindi standards, and b)
difficult and unattractive to render in the Roman script, thus I
chose to come up with something a bit old fashioned in English.
Now
the big problem for a translator from Hindi and Urdu into English is
that one is bound to have many readers who not only know at least a
passing amount of said languages, but may actually be fully fluent in
them, and literate too. Why are they reading the English? Often it’s
just their habit to read in English, but they are also the most
critical readers of translations, and complain of translators
“over-translating”, having a preference for being able to “feel
the Hindi” through the English. I have seen many reviewers say such
things about translations from Hindi and Urdu (not of my books, but
of others), and I must say, if they are so eager to “feel the
Hindi”, they really ought to take the trouble to purchase the Hindi
original, since they don’t need an English translation.
As
someone who is also a writer of fiction, how would you describe the
difference between the work of writing and that of translation? Does
translating ever create a temptation to rewrite?
Translation
is a form of creative writing, it’s just creative writing within
very strict parameters. Robert Frost once said that “writing free
verse is like playing tennis with
the net down.”
Non-translation writing for me is like tennis with the net down as
well. You can do anything, but do you want to?
Are
there books you’ve read, especially before you became a translator,
that you never considered as works in translation? Do you see them
differently now?
I’ve
always been very conscious of language and started studying Latin
when I was eleven or twelve, so I can’t remember a time that I
wasn’t conscious of the way translated language stretches English
into new and interesting shapes.
Conversely,
are there books you’ve read that you think would be untranslatable?
Kazuo Ishiguro once castigated his fellow English writers for making
their prose too difficult to translate. Does this idea of developing
a style for its translatability – leanness, simplicity – make any
sense to you?
Translatability
I think is really the fluke of the individual writer’s style. I
know that Murakami works closely with his translators and often
prefers the English editions of his books to be the authoritative
ones. Hindi writers are generally speaking all about regional
specificity and inhabiting their linguistic sphere fully. Hindi
literature was mostly born and developed as a nationalist impulse,
somewhat like modern Hebrew, and I think that Hindi authors still
feel that they are forging a new idiom and a new literature. This
makes Hindi extremely difficult to translate at times. Certainly way
more difficult than Urdu prose, which does not have the same
“newness” chip on its shoulder. Hindi writing is still in a state
of efflorescence and contestation. Krishna Sobti, for example, is
extremely difficult to translate – she almost has her own idiolect
– and I have just started to work on Geetanjali Shree, who is also
very challenging.
Do
you think there needs to be a different kind of translation for
readers who are familiar with the cultural context of a work –
Indians reading in English – than there is for foreign readers who
have never encountered a basti or a chulha or a hakim? Are Indian
publishers becoming more comfortable with and cognisant of this
need?
I
would say yes, and covered some of this above, as in the case of the
readers who actually know Hindi but do not read in it. However, since
publishers outside of India do not currently have any interest in
South Asian literature in translation, I feel that we translators
must attempt to create texts that can be all things to all people. I
do keep many Indian words in the text, but I also tend to give a
cursory gloss for terms that a non-Indian reader wouldn’t get. I
don’t like having glossaries, and I do think in a long book,
readers can learn certain terms from context. The trick is not to
overdo it so that the non-Indian readers get overwhelmed and put the
book down.
Similarly,
one should not under-do it because then the Indian readers will get
annoyed. One rule of thumb I use is I ask myself: “Is this word
used very often in Indian English?” “Did this word make it into
Hobson Jobson?” If the answer is yes, I will keep it. I might also
put in a word to give the reader a hint, like “crunchy chiuda”,
but never naan bread or chai tea.
Kinship
terms are hands down the most difficult aspect of translation into
English from South Asian languages in my opinion. Women’s writing
contains way more of these terms than men’s writing, simply because
there is more action inside the house than outside, generally. With
these I try my best to come up with English equivalents, but also
include some original terms so I won’t be accused of
over-translation. The problem with the kinship terms of course, is
not only are they very elaborate, but they are all context-centric,
so one person’s devar is
another person’s bhai
sahib,
is another’s chacha
ji,
etc. In Falling
Walls,
I called Chetan’s elder brother Bhai Sahib and used as I would a
name, because I simply couldn’t imagine him without that title, and
he was an important character. I called the mother Ma because this is
perfectly understandable in English, but I didn’t call Bhai Sahib’s
wife Bhabhi, because he also gives her real name, and it would get
confusing with all the bhabhis in the house.